21 users responded " Atheist comedian podcast, and Nation of Islam "

"Atheist comedian podcast, and Nation of Islam" was posted by and 21 users commented
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uzza said,         
June 3 2010

NOI has always fascinated me. One, why do they not die of embarassment from being associated with such a ridiculous story?

two, why they are considered a branch of Islam since they have practically nothing in common with same?

Weird.

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Chris said,         
June 3 2010

With that account talking about things happening 66 trillion ago, of course you can’t but laugh. Geological evidence shows the Earth is no more than 4.5 billion years old.

The main problem I have with mythology is that it’s dumb. It relies too much on willful belief of fantastic things, never seen by people living in your era, and never provable in your grandchildren’s lifetimes.

Sarah, if you want some good comedy material, you should take the “mock believer” approach. Pretend that you believe in that horse____ to the audience, playing it totally straight.

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The Grenadian Freethinker said,         
June 4 2010

Of course, these things are not supported in the Bible and Qur’an. Remember for many many years Nation Of Islam (NOI) was not accepted as a “authentic” Islamic organization. It was shun by mainstream Islam until the death of its founder Elijah Muhammad. I was not part of the NOI, but as a black person from the Caribbean who was and still is interested in “Afro-centrism”, I study their material of the NOI, and trust me, those “Afrocentric” organizations are laden with not just irrational concept but these concepts and beliefs are down right idiotic and comical. Therefore, it does not matter, it should not, if you are white, black, blue, or orange. You have that right to criticize and make fun of the NOI’s irrational beliefs. Indeed, you will be seen as a racist by those who are closed minded, and just as the Jews condemn those who points out their flaw as “anti-Semite, “Afrocentric” organizations operate the same way. Any time anyone, black or white, points out these groups’ irrationalities; you are either an Uncle Tom, or a racist. Go-ahead, make fun of the NOI and the many other “Afrocentric” movements.

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Sarah said,         
June 4 2010

I can’t find anything online about ex/former NOI’s. I want to know if they have a cute nickname for their former religion, like ex-Mormons call Mormons “Morgs,” as in “we are Morg.” Do former NOI’s call themselves “ex Noisies”? That’s the best I can do off the top of my head.
@Grenadian: You’re my first Caribbean correspondent! Aloha! From what I hear, “classic” Islam doesn’t accept NOI, and I don’t know if that’s a selling point or not. Since atheists and skeptics have such a large overlap, I’ve read some about Afrocentricism and think it’s sad that anyone who challenges “revisionist” history is accused of racism. This is bad, bad, bad for academia. I bet if I tweaked history so that people would feel better about themselves, my dad would disown me.
And I can’t even say *that* without many people accusing me of racism… it seems like any skepticism of things such as NOI is simply not “allowed,” at least not by a white person. I have a lot of ideas about race, but feel like I can’t ask questions, and believe me, it’s not like I’m advocating a cross-burning (although I never understood why burning a cross is a racist act, but whatev). I’ve talked a lot about how people accuse me of racism when I criticize Islam. I always asked, “How is this about race?” And the person finally admits that it’s not.
I think you understand what I mean. I guess part of me thinks it’s not worth expressing legitimate concerns/feelings if it means people will call me a bigot. I made fun of the French, too, and some guy called me racist for that. Everyone makes fun of the French!
Once I wrote in an Amazon discussion that I didn’t feel “allowed” to say anything about race bc people wouldn’t like what I said, no matter what it was. You guessed it: the other guy didn’t like what I said, saying that I was pandering to PC nonsense.
Life, huh?

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Robert H. said,         
June 4 2010

My father was, for all intents and purposes, a member of the Nation of Islam and my mother and her entire family was raised in the Baptist tradition. You can’t imagine the religious conversations that went on in my house. The truth is, somehow my mother and father never argued about their respective faiths…at least not in front of my brother and I. But I can still hear my dad chiding my mother whenever she took us to church…”I hope you don’t, or didn’t, have my sons on their knees worshiping a white God, that’s psychological slavery!”

In retrospect, I see that this fundamental difference in my parent’s religious perspectives laid the foundation for my questioning nature. I loved both of my parents and I knew that they both could not be correct regarding their religious rhetoric, so I began my own investigation into the religions of the world.

That said, I’d go toe to toe with the N.O.I. in a debating ring and I respect your right to poke fun at them, but I don’t think that I could do a stand up routine lambasting them exclusively. With all of their ridiculous claims and false teachings (just like their Jewish and Christian cousins) the N.O.I. that I grew up with was a reactionary group that was trying, imperfectly and illogically, to raise the consciousness and self esteem of Black people; Black people that had been catching hell for over four hundred years.

I’ve got a lot more to say, but this is not the correct forum. Hope I’ve been of some assistance.

Blog: The African American Agnostic
Hamptonroads.com

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Robert H. said,         
June 4 2010

One more thing Sarah. Search YouTube for pastor Gino Jennings debates with the N.O.I. Jennings is an animated Christian preacher and goes to town one of Farakhan’s ministers…it might be worth watching.

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Randy said,         
June 5 2010

Plenty of comedians, at least Black comedians, have joked about the Nation of Islam, usually with bow-tie and beanpie jokes. Damon Wayans even parodied Louis Farrakhan on an episode of “In Living Color” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_4aqWGwcY).

The NOI’s ideology goes far deeper than the “mythological” quote you posted. It primarily is concerned with the psychological and spiritual effect that white supremacy has had on African-Americans, and the rest of the world, for that matter. And it sees the role of Jews as being central to that effect, in part because Jews are regarded as “liberals” or “friends of the Negro”, and in part because the NOI sees modern Jews as having usurped the history of an ancient Black race of people.

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Heather said,         
June 5 2010

Wow. All that’s missing is the Evil Alien Overlord Xenu.

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Azazel said,         
June 7 2010

The Nation of Islam’s conception of “God” is different from that of mainstream Abrahamic religions. It does not conceive of God as an external spiritual being. And the NOI has been made fun of by many black comedians.

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Militant Atheist said,         
June 7 2010

Why do you refer to yourself as Jewish, Sarah?

Aren’t you atheist?

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Sarah said,         
June 7 2010

@ Robert– thanks so much for sharing. I’ll be sure to check out your blog. It sounds like you’ve been through quite a lot!
Thanks to all who sent me comedy links. Now that I think about it, MAD magazine (which is, for all intents and purposes, a Jewish institution), had a Louis Farrakhan Christmas Carol songbook when I was a kid.
@Randy– so generally, according to NOI, are the Jews good guys or not? Or are we a mixed blessing? I get the impression that Louie and his pals don’t much like us.
@Heather– I think Xenu couldn’t be there that day, but isn’t it funny how NOI has so much in common with Scientology?
@Militant atheist– I’m not religiously Jewish, but I’m ethnically and culturally Jewish. It’s hard to explain that to non-Jews. Shalom!

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Randy said,         
June 8 2010

@ Sarah

1) Good guys? Not at all. Jews are considered to be devils just like all other whites.

2) Jews played a significant role in the African Slave Trade and financed the bulk of it. See “The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews”.

3) During the 50s and 60s, American Jewish intellectuals began to heavily support the State of Israel, a Jewish homeland and the idea of Zionism, but at the same time encouraged American Blacks to “integrate” and not establish a nation of their own.

4) Jews are dominant in show business, which routinely puts out negative and demeaning caricatures of Blacks.

5) The people who today call themselves “Jews” are not true Jews, i.e. they are not descendants of the Ancient Hebrews, but instead come from an Eastern European people named the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 9th Century or so. Hence, the NOI often talks about the “so-called” Jews.

There are other issues as well, but these are the main ones that I can readily point out.

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Sarah said,         
June 8 2010

@ Chris– good idea for stand-up to play deadpan. As for other comedy on NOI, I couldn’t find much, even from black comedians. Just a few bits.
And not really serving NOI as it richly deserves.
@ Randy– what about non-white Jews? Or ones that are Caucasian but not “white,” in the sense of looking more Middle Eastern?
The black/Jewish relationship is a complicated and interesting one. What really dusts my doilies about NOI is that Jews were very active, far beyond their numbers, in the civil rights movement (heck, we knew exactly what it felt like). Then what do some blacks do right afterward? Persecute Jews. Don’t mention it, guys! You’re welcome! Sheesh.
So American blacks wanted a nation of their own? Like Israel, but a sanctuary for blacks? Or do you mean nation as in Nation of Islam?
Jews are dominant in show biz, true… but it’s hard for me to accept that this is why/how negative black caricatures appear. If rap music is any indication, looks to me like blacks *themselves* are responsible for quite a bit of this, but it makes money, so they must know what the audience wants. Feh.
For the record, there are lots of black Jews, mostly Ethiopians who have emigrated to Israel.
As to your fifth point, I’m skeptical about that. Why would anyone, particularly in large numbers, convert to Judaism in such a time and place? Most Jews in the US are Ashkenazi (from central and Eastern Europe), but ultimately descended from what you call “true” Jews. If I don’t look like I came out of the Middle East, it’s because non-Jews raped my ancestors and that’s where the red hair and blue eyes come from.
Are you saying that NOI only criticizes “so-called Jews,” but lets real Jews (who are they?) off the hook?

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Randy said,         
June 8 2010

As far as Sephardic or Falasha Jews are concerned, I don’t know how the NOI sees them. The main beef is with Jews of European descent and Israel as well.

You’re correct that Jews were heavily involved in the Civil Rights Movement, but that is precisely the point. That Nation of Islam was and always has been opposed to immigration and never supported the Civil Rights Movement or its leaders. That’s part of the reason why Malcolm X left the movement. It doesn’t trust the American political system and believes that Black people shouldn’t participate in it and stated from the beginning that Brown v. Board of Education was a “trick” to lull African-Americans into a deeper sleep and advance them from “ancient slavery” to “modern slavery”.

When have Blacks ever persecuted Jews? Or even had the power or been in the position to do so?

As far as show-biz, it goes into the belief/stereotype that Jews run Hollywood and the music business, so they dictate what images appear and are pushed in the media.

As far as converting, the story goes that Khazaria was a empire in what is now southeastern Russia, around the Caucasus Mountains and Black Sea, that made a political decision to convert to Judaism since it was situated between Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East, both of whom were warring with each other at the time. As Jews, the Khazar people would be granted “dhimmi” status if they were ever conquered by the Muslims and would be granted certain political privileges if they were ever conquered by the Christians. If you’re really interested in this topic, read “The Thirteenth Tribe” by Arthur Koestler, who was a Hungarian Jew.

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Sarah said,         
June 9 2010

I need to read up on the history of NOI. They opposed the civil rights movement? Um, OK… wow. By “immigration,” do you mean blacks living in America instead of African countries? Are the NOI people saying that blacks in America shouldn’t vote, run for office, etc?
I’m sure Jews have persecuted blacks, but I don’t think this happened in large numbers, percentage-wise. Don’t forget that for a lot of history, people were mean to each other- the Italians hated the Jews hated the Blacks hated the Asians hated the DMV, and so forth. (I made all that up, but you get the idea). As far as I know, Jews never launched any large-scale racist campaign. If using your tax dollars to bring every Jew in Ethiopia to your nation is any indication, our campaigns are anything but racist.
I’ll have to check on that Khazaria– it sounds interesting. I don’t know if they easified the conversion process, since converting to Judaism is hard. It’s designed to accept people only if they’re really serious about it.

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Randy said,         
June 11 2010

Sorry, I meant “integration”, not “immigration”. But yes, the NOI, in general, is a Black Separatist organization totally opposed to integration and believes in the creation of a separate Black nation-state. According to its theology, God wants Blacks to separate from America so he can destroy it. Other empires and great civilizations, like Egypt and Rome, were destroyed because they practiced slavery and never atoned for it. The same fate will befall America if it does not atone for slavery. So, in this sense, the NOI has always seen itself as a religious group that should not be equated with the non-religious and Black Christian church-driven Civil Rights Movement.

It believes Black people should obey the law, for the most part, but should not vote or run for office and also should not accept monetary assistance or aid from the government in any form, especially welfare.

Part of its prejudice against Jews is because they were heavily involved in the creation of the NAACP and the Civil Rights Movement, which were pro-integration. And it also gave the NOI credibility with many Muslim and Middle-Eastern countries, as well as White supremacist groups that shared its racial separatist and anti-Semitic philosophy. A common belief with many White supremacist and neo-Nazi groups is that Jews are encouraging race-mixing between Blacks and Whites in order to destroy the White (Aryan) race. The NOI takes the same stance, but with the opposite effect; that race-mixing will destroy the Black race.

I don’t know of any large-scale racist campaigns by Jews, other than organizations like the Jewish Defense League and radicals like Rabbi Meir Kahane. There are some who cite the Talmud as being the origin of religiously-justified racism against Blacks.

Info on the Khazars: http://www.khazaria.com/

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

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Sarah said,         
June 15 2010

@ Randy: I’m not an expert, but wasn’t integration pivotal in the civil rights movement? Equal rights aren’t the same if blacks “should” segregate themselves. De facto segregation is one thing; it’s another to actively discourage people from “mixing.” I’ve said it before: racism would go away if we stopped paying so much attention to race.

Many of my friends are Jewish, as well as atheists, liberals and other things which with I identify, but I wouldn’t want anyone telling me not to hang out with other people. OK, I’ve been explicitly told to marry a Jewish man, and that’s what I’m talking about.
One more thing: NOI is incorrect in its premise that Islam is more “black-friendly” than other religions. Assuming what I’ve read is correct, that’s not even close to true, sadly.
Um, why do NOI’s want America destroyed? Don’t they live here? And if they want to form their own black nation, why not do it? Do any of them emigrate, and if so, to where? It’d be adorable if they moved into my mom’s neighborhood in Israel (I smell a sitcom!).
Many, many countries, including many in Africa, have practiced slavery over the years. It is still a problem today. Probably every country/people in the world has made mistakes, even terrible ones.
From the point of NOI, wouldn’t voting/running for office be to their benefit? Wouldn’t they want to form/make laws in their favor? Not that I want to encourage this.
I am baffled as to why NOI would attack the civil rights movement and Jews for being so active in it. It’s like shooting yourself in the foot. Do they *want* to be in the back of the bus?
I’m sure that they exist, but I have yet to meet any Jews who defend racism like this. Certainly I’ve never heard anyone Jewish use Jewish texts to justify racism, although I do know bible passages that back up these horrible institutions.

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Randy said,         
June 15 2010

“Integration” was a goal of the mainstream Civil Rights Movement, but it met with resistance within the black community as well as from white America, particular in the South. There are many to this day who believe that integration did more harm to the black community than good, as it hurt black-owned banks, newspapers, businesses, etc., since the black middle-class left many black areas for more integrated ones. As far as the NOI is concerned, it’s has always regarded whites as a race of “born devils” who were evil by their nature and their creation, so it had no desire to live amongst them.

Islam in general posits itself as the original belief of all human beings, as it is the nature of man to submit to Allah. The NOI carries that into the black community by teaching that African-Americans were Muslim prior to slavery and that Christianity and the worship of a “white Jesus” was forced on us during that period.

The NOI wants America destroyed because of its crimes against the Black Man. According to the NOI’s founders, the greatest problem facing black people is a “lack of knowledge of self”. Slavery has been practiced on every continent throughout history, but what America did to black people was unprecedented. It stripped a race of people of its original languages, religion(s), and culture. So the black population of America had no knowledge of who it was and where it had come from. Hence the “X” in their names, representing the unknown, like in Algebra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHP89mLWOY

Voting and running for office is of no benefit to black people because the system itself is corrupt and white supremacist. Complete and total separation is the only solution.

Once again, the Civil Rights Movement and integration was a “trick” that would only pull the wool over the eyes of the black community. It was never designed for the benefit of black people.

There are radical Jews that will use Jewish or Hebrew texts to justify racism, extermination of Arabs, etc. Of course, they’re not in the mainstream.

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Sarah said,         
June 16 2010

I don’t know where to begin correcting NOI’s historical and political information. Let’s start with Islam was *not* the first belief system humans had. It is one of the more recent ones.
Do NOI people resent civil rights in the sense that they *want* to sit in the back of the bus, get paid less, have fewer opportunities, etc? Have they lost their minds?
Imagine if I said, “I don’t want to hang around the goyim, after all these years of what they’ve done to us, so I’m not going to try to fight against anti-Semitism/ or for civil rights for Jews because it means I’ll have to mix with goyim. Shanda.” Ay gevalt! It wasn’t that long ago anti-Semitism was a real problem in the US.
I’ve read about some black Americans who say nothing has improved for their lot since the civil rights movement. I doubt such people are mainstream, either, but I gotta tell them, for fuck’s sake, guys! I mean, I know things aren’t perfect, but are you fucking blind?!

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Randy said,         
June 16 2010

How the rest of the world sees Islam and how Muslims regard Islam, spiritually, are two different things. The outside world sees Islam as the last of the “Abrahamic” religions, following Judaism and Christianity, and that it began with the teachings of an Arab prophet named Muhammad. Islam regards itself as the original state of being of the world and the Universe. Islam means “submission”, and it is the nature of the Universe and everything in it to submit to the will of Allah. When the planets orbit the Sun, when the flowers bloom, when the tides come in…everything is an expression of Allah’s will. In Islamic theology, Adam, being the first Man, was also the first prophet and the first Muslim. All the other prophets, including Moses and Jesus, were Muslim as well since they taught submission to the one God. Muhammad is just the last prophet, and the one through whom the Quran was revealed.

Allah created three spiritual beings; the Angels (who were created from Light), the Jinn (who were created from Fire), and Man (who was created from Dust). The Angels were not given free will, but free will was given to the Jinn and to Man.

I could write a book, really. But just realize that the “academic” view of Islam isn’t necessarily what is taught within Islam itself. A lot of Westerners know virtually nothing about Islam, and thus, do not understand the radical and fundamentalist ideologies that fuel organizations like the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Also, the NOI’s interpretation of Islam doesn’t follow Islamic orthodoxy either, which is why it is considered to be a heretical sect.

I wouldn’t say that the NOI resents civil rights, but it’s a separatist movement. I can only compare it to those Tea-Party style whites who don’t believe in paying income taxes, as they’re seen as unjust and a violation of the Constitution. You and I may see taxes as necessary for roads, hospitals and schools, but their view on taxation is different. Or perhaps Confederate whites, who believe the South should have been and still should be a separate nation.

And, there are Orthodox Jews who do not support the State of Israel and believe it should have never been created, as they regard it as un-Biblical. They are not mainstream in the Jewish community but they do exist as well.

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